First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

A place to discuss all aspects of Clue/Cluedo.

Moderators: Michael, BBP, Tum

Post Reply
User avatar
CluedoKid
Con Artiste
Posts: 17322
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:05 am

First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by CluedoKid » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:08 pm

Since they seem intent on removing the "boring, out-of-date" elements of Clue, I wonder, will they be replacing the lead pipe (or maybe the wrench next? The lead pipe is perhaps my favourite weapon, so I'd be quite cheesed if they touch it. :evil:
Image

User avatar
Murder by Death
Forensics Supervisor
Posts: 2583
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Murder by Death » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:19 am

We’ve had a few discussion over the years about the role of the lead pipe, it’s viability, and it’s replacement, most notably during the DTS years. And to summarize, lead piping is hard to come by these days, most people born after 1980 don’t know what one is, there are more effective bludgeoning instruments lying around a modern household, and how many bludgeoning instruments does one really need?

But unlike adding racial diversity, the setting and weapons don’t really need updating so long as Clue remains a period experience set in an old Victorian mansion. That said, I’m not really opposed to it. I really liked the dumbbell in DTS, and was OK with the baseball bat. I like the sporting equipment angle. Other good weapons would have been a golf club, polo mallet, cricket bat, bowling ball, etc.

Personally I never liked the lead pipe — it was the second least interesting weapon to me after the plastic rope. But in terms of trademark, it’s an important part of Hasbro’s identity for the game. But then so was Mrs. White. On the other hand, unlike updating a character for racial diversity, or changing a location (which is nothing new in various editions), to focus on a murder weapon may not be the best marketing campaign to embark upon in today’s climate, especially for what is perceived a family game. Of course it makes sense, but it’s also drawing focus to the murder, and away from the mystery.

Jonathan Green
Detective
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Jonathan Green » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:58 pm

Murder by Death wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:19 am
We’ve had a few discussion over the years about the role of the lead pipe, it’s viability, and it’s replacement, most notably during the DTS years. And to summarize, lead piping is hard to come by these days, most people born after 1980 don’t know what one is, there are more effective bludgeoning instruments lying around a modern household, and how many bludgeoning instruments does one really need?
I somewhat agree. In Clue game that set in present day, a lead pie would not make sense. A steel pipe will probably make more sense.

Image

I also don't mind if Hasbro changed the design for the revolver. Something like the revolver from 50th/PTM. I personally like to think Boddy owns a Smith & Wesson Pre-Model 17 K22 Masterpiece .22 LR Revolver

It looks like this:
Image

Source: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns- ... =101270578
Check out my Instagram account to see my art - :arrow: https://www.instagram.com/david_rodriguez_art/?hl=en

User avatar
cacums
Ringer
Posts: 11139
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 11:58 am
Location: If I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by cacums » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:01 pm

I'm all for freshness and new takes, but axing the Hall during an Anniversary Edition? Every Anniversary item I own - movie, book, game, video game is released as close to the original as possible. You can add extra things and "special features" to an Anniversary edition (like they did with the Poison) but if you take away and change something, it is no longer an "Anniversary Edition" regardless to when you release it. :?

Jonathan Green
Detective
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Jonathan Green » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:22 pm

cacums wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:01 pm
I'm all for freshness and new takes, but axing the Hall during an Anniversary Edition? Every Anniversary item I own - movie, book, game, video game is released as close to the original as possible. You can add extra things and "special features" to an Anniversary edition (like they did with the Poison) but if you take away and change something, it is no longer an "Anniversary Edition" regardless to when you release it. :?
Agreed
Check out my Instagram account to see my art - :arrow: https://www.instagram.com/david_rodriguez_art/?hl=en

User avatar
cacums
Ringer
Posts: 11139
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 11:58 am
Location: If I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by cacums » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:33 pm

I've lost all hope for Mrs. White appearing in the Anniversary edition where she belongs, but HEY, IF THE HIGHER UP'S CAN HEAR ME - Put White by the Kitchen and Dining Room in the empty start space, keep your precious Orchid, and toss in the poison.

Not everything needs to be modernized and reinvented. It's a turn of the century murder mystery. Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, Pre-World War 2. That's the ambiance; that's the inspiration. How long do we have to wait before the early 1900s are fetishized again? :roll:

Jonathan Green
Detective
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Jonathan Green » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:37 pm

cacums wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:33 pm
I've lost all hope for Mrs. White appearing in the Anniversary edition where she belongs, but HEY, IF THE HIGHER UP'S CAN HEAR ME - Put White by the Kitchen and Dining Room in the empty start space, keep your precious Orchid, and toss in the poison.

Not everything needs to be modernized and reinvented. It's a turn of the century murder mystery. Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, Pre-World War 2. That's the ambiance; that's the inspiration. How long do we have to wait before the early 1900s are fetishized again? :roll:
I was thinking of that space too. It be fitting, since she's a cook and maid.
Check out my Instagram account to see my art - :arrow: https://www.instagram.com/david_rodriguez_art/?hl=en

User avatar
alwaysPeacock
Fleet Street Look-Out
Posts: 3243
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:45 pm
Location: GA, USA

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by alwaysPeacock » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:08 am

The answer the original question: I hope so. The poison should have been given full time status decades ago (like, from the beginning. What was Pratt/Waddington’s logic in dropping it after the patent was filed?).

Hasbro can (and will) tinker with their classics as often as they see fit/want to. Now that board games are cool again, they’re able to outgrow their awkward phase of producing games as cheaply & hideously as possible (looking at you, double sided boardwalk Clue) so naturally it’s time for some careful redesigns & marketing gimmicks that fit the molds proven to actually work (hence the return to the classic board & gameplay after two duds of modernizing every last detail). Monopoly has seen a steady rotation of tokens over the years, Life has been redesigned (and dumbed down) almost every decade.

As long as the spirit of the game stays intact, I’m actually more open minded now to where they might take Clue in the coming years. Dr. Orchid has been blended very nicely into the rogues gallery (thanks, in part, to her likely being a required inclusion in all of the licensing arrangements made with other publishers for their books/comics/video game, etc). Retiring one of the 3 bludgeoning weapons wouldn’t hurt. The candlestick is too iconic, and between the remaining two, only the wrench is truly timeless. Heck, they even tried to stick a nonsensical magic mirror into the game (mixed results, methinks, as I still haven’t seen that edition in any physical shops).

Regarding the hall: I’ll be very surprised if the new room (if, indeed, simply a remodeled hall doesn’t win the vote) becomes a permanent fixture rather than a one-off. They did a similar partnership with TripAdvisor for an edition of Life that included a set of vacation cards with ratings & such. The only problem: the TripAdvisor logo was EVERYWHERE in that game. I doubt Hasbro will be inclined to slap the Houzz logo on all future Clue/do games, but I expect we will have to endure it for at least one edition so they can fulfill some contract.
"But look what happened to the cook!"

User avatar
cacums
Ringer
Posts: 11139
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 11:58 am
Location: If I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by cacums » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:42 am

alwaysPeacock wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:08 am
The poison should have been given full time status decades ago

-

Retiring one of the 3 bludgeoning weapons wouldn’t hurt. The candlestick is too iconic, and between the remaining two, only the wrench is truly timeless.
The Wrench is one of my favorite weapons and I was sad to see it and the Lead Pipe go during the 2008 Reinvention, but if I had to lose one of the two, I'd drop the Pipe.

The Poison is an excellent replacement for the Lead Pipe, which to be fair, doesn't even look good anymore. The card always has it trying too hard to be the preexisting token instead of trying to resemble an actual Lead Pipe. It's supposed to be fatty and imperfect looking. Lead is flexible, it's not like a Fireplace Poker which bends specifically upon bludgeoning. It's like whipping someone to death with something slightly stiffer than a metal hose.

Poison replacing Lead Pipe = :o :)
Wrench and Lead Pipe both exiting = :evil:

User avatar
CluedoKid
Con Artiste
Posts: 17322
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:05 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by CluedoKid » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:50 pm

Clue the movie didn't help matters with cementing a steel pipe in people's minds as a 'lead pipe'. I do agree, lead pipes are archaic, we don't see them in homes anymore. But then, I'm one who feels Clue can be benefit being added to, like Master Detective, I see little sense in removing iconic fixtures of the game.
Image

Black
Bindle Stiff
Posts: 6175
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: In the Billiard Rm with the Wrench

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Black » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:19 am

CluedoKid wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:50 pm
Clue the movie didn't help matters with cementing a steel pipe in people's minds as a 'lead pipe'. I do agree, lead pipes are archaic, we don't see them in homes anymore. But then, I'm one who feels Clue can be benefit being added to, like Master Detective, I see little sense in removing iconic fixtures of the game.
I've got to agree with this; Hasbro needs to make a special addition of Clue instead of making these crappy themed games. Make another Master Detective or a remake of SFX

coinilius
Private Eye
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:56 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by coinilius » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:39 am

Black wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:19 am
CluedoKid wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:50 pm
Clue the movie didn't help matters with cementing a steel pipe in people's minds as a 'lead pipe'. I do agree, lead pipes are archaic, we don't see them in homes anymore. But then, I'm one who feels Clue can be benefit being added to, like Master Detective, I see little sense in removing iconic fixtures of the game.
I've got to agree with this; Hasbro needs to make a special addition of Clue instead of making these crappy themed games. Make another Master Detective or a remake of SFX
I agree - I'd really love a version of Cluedo where you move between locations inside and the outside of the mansion.

The Late Dr Black
Snoop
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:31 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by The Late Dr Black » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:32 pm

I generally prefer the older 'Agatha Christie' style elements of the game. In the U.k. We don't have guns, so arguably it would make sense to remove the Revolver. I think modernising the game hasn't worked. Just look how many attempts have been made and how we all keep going back to the original.

For me the Lead Piping is the weapon most synonymous with Clue/do. Everyone knows Professor Plum and the Billiard Room because of this game, not because they are part of pop culture! (If indeed they are pop culture then it's because of Clue/do)

I'd love to see Anthony Pratt's original version made, complete with Gun Room, Syringe, bomb and Mr Gold.

coinilius
Private Eye
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:56 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by coinilius » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:44 pm

I'd probably put the Candlestick as the most iconic Clue/do weapon, but I'd hate to see the Lead Pipe go permanently.

Modernising definitely isn't my cup of tea for the direction of the game either, although I also think Cluedo is such a perennial game that there is room for modern and classic interpretations.

Put me down for wanting to see an actual release of the Patent version of Cluedo as well - the extra rooms, weapons and characters would all be awesome, and the strange rule variations would also make it a unique experience compared to a standard game of Clue (probably not better, but certainly unique).

User avatar
Murder by Death
Forensics Supervisor
Posts: 2583
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Murder by Death » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:11 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with modernizing the game, every so often. Since the "reinvention" it's been proven there's enough of a market for the classic editions, that one can easily be had without much effort, or the sacrifice of other editions. Let them change-up the basic Hasbro game every 5-7 years -- we get a new interpretation, with fresh ideas (for better or worse), but along side it, we still get plenty of the classic editions. The ubiquity of third-party branded franchise editions seems to be thriving, and something else we can enjoy.

Original Clue/do isn't going away, but I think we all have to embrace the fact that unlike years past, they have to constantly come up with new ways to market it, to keep it in the public eye. Sure run a contest to replace the Hall ... it'll be back, and for other editions, it will never go away. Just look at hos Hasbro handles Monopoly ... new editions every few years, some with radical alterations, which either persist as separate games, or until the next new edition.

What I'd really like to see is a line of Clue/do "decades" games. A series of editions that are set in different decades. Maybe starting with the 1920s/30s, the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s/90s, and 2000s. Have the rooms and weapons reflect the era they are set in, with decor and fashion to match. That way they could go 'whole-hog' to tailor the game to the decade without making any compromises to the original -- in fact, release them alongside the regular game over its 7 year life span.

I think the weapons in general will be harder to replace as they are all trademarked and copyrighted, both the look and design. Much easier to protect a weapon that's been apart of the game since 1949, than to keep claiming protection on new generic weapons with no history of use. The rooms are already generic, so replacing the Hall is no problem. But, the iconic, non-standard rooms that identify with Clue/do are the Ball Room, Conservatory, and to a lesser extent, the Billiard Room and Lounge. The Library in context stands out (because who has a library in their home?). The rest can go. As far as the weapons, a murder game really ought to have a knife, a gun, and a bludgeoning instrument, and a suffocation method.

Of course Clue is overloaded disproportionately with 3 bludgeoning instruments -- 4 if you count the revolver (I like to think it was used this way to explain why no one heard the gunshot and why they have so much trouble determining the method of the victim's demise -- this also works for a heavy decorative knife, but out of luck with the rope). So in that sense, perhaps drop two of the bludgeoning instruments for poisoning, and what else is there? Burning the victim? Maybe another way to look at the candlestick too? And Exploding -- I always loved the idea of a bomb from the patent game.

User avatar
Sir Shamrock
Slueth
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:36 pm
Location: In the ballroom, with the Candlestick

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Sir Shamrock » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:35 pm

What I wish they would do is to sell 2 types of Clue games. One where they can do whatever they want, switching suspects or weapons or remodeling the house. And the other is just true Clue, just like the last 70 years. Not like "Classic Clue" from Winning Moves with the original artwork, but with the actual artwork that they have been using lately. That way they can do whatever marketing stunt they want and the true fans wouldn't have to pay for it. Knowing Hasbo however that won't happen, but who knows. This will mark the first time since 1949 that a decade doesn't have it's own game of original Clue. Deeply disappointed.

User avatar
Murder by Death
Forensics Supervisor
Posts: 2583
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Murder by Death » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:49 pm

Sir Shamrock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:35 pm
This will mark the first time since 1949 that a decade doesn't have it's own game of original Clue. Deeply disappointed.
You mean because the current version has Dr. Orchid instead of Mrs. White?

I'd argue that updating the character is more or less a permanent "improvement". I don't really count that against what is otherwise 100% a classic edition of the original game. That said, what I wish they'd done is included an optional Mrs. White card with the new artwork. With any luck we will get that at some point, if not an expanded game for the anniversary -- which I hope they release in time for Christmas this year, rather than next.

They've given us optional poison before, which I think they should start including as standard. Increase the suspects and weapons count and allow the customer to discard and play original style, or enhanced. The only thing they can't really do is provide extra rooms -- though they could do worse than a game board that lays out in tiles permitting optional expansion tiles. But they could provide two starting spaces for the optional character:

Image

User avatar
Sir Shamrock
Slueth
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:36 pm
Location: In the ballroom, with the Candlestick

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by Sir Shamrock » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:12 pm

Murder by Death wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:49 pm
Sir Shamrock wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:35 pm
This will mark the first time since 1949 that a decade doesn't have it's own game of original Clue. Deeply disappointed.
You mean because the current version has Dr. Orchid instead of Mrs. White?

I'd argue that updating the character is more or less a permanent "improvement". I don't really count that against what is otherwise 100% a classic edition of the original game. That said, what I wish they'd done is included an optional Mrs. White card with the new artwork. With any luck we will get that at some point, if not an expanded game for the anniversary -- which I hope they release in time for Christmas this year, rather than next.

They've given us optional poison before, which I think they should start including as standard. Increase the suspects and weapons count and allow the customer to discard and play original style, or enhanced. The only thing they can't really do is provide extra rooms -- though they could do worse than a game board that lays out in tiles permitting optional expansion tiles. But they could provide two starting spaces for the optional character:
I don't really see Dr. Orchid as an improvement but as more of a shamless cash grab. They can do what they want, but it still is going to affect the general feel of Clue. You may say that Clue 2016 is a true Clue game and that's fine, I can totally see it. But I just can't get behind the fact that Hasbro would just change important parts of the Clue story just to appear more modern. If they got rid of Mrs. White and then the Hall, what's next? Should we expect a major change to the game every three years? Will the 100th anniversary of Clue even resemble it's first 70 years. Perhaps I'm reading to much into it and just need to step back. Who knows what Clue will bring in the next few years.

That being said, adding optional cards could be interesting. Sort of like what happens in the Clue app but with a physical aspect. (And I wouldn't say no to some expansion packs. It's a shame Monsieur Brunette and Prince Azure have never met :P )

The Late Dr Black
Snoop
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:31 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by The Late Dr Black » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:23 am

I feel like the real problem with Dr Orchid is her obvious PC factor

1 - she's deliberately coloured pink to appeal to the female market.
2 - she's Asian which I think was a deliberate move to make Cluedo seem more inclusive. I'm not sure it's really that necessary.
3 - she's the first female character to gain a qualified title. I.e. Dr .

There's nothing inherently wrong here but it feels like they tried to make one character appeal to every demographic they could think of. Don't get me wrong, I like the character but she is less of a game piece and more of a marketing teams desperate attempt to grab the cash cow by appealing to as many people as possible.

My solution would have been to keep Mrs White and maybe copy other games by having additional packs with new suspects and new weapons. This way the Die hard fans get to keep their beloved game and collectors could collect additional boards, suspects and weapons. Allowing for a great variety of gameplay. And racial, educational, colour variety etc

Production costs would be met by the demand for new materials.

coinilius
Private Eye
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:56 am

Re: First Mrs. White, then the Hall, is the Lead pipe next?

Post by coinilius » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:41 am

I've mentioned it in another thread, but I would have gone for adding two more new characters, Dr Orchid and another male character, while also keeping Mrs White - after all, there are 2 extra spaces that would be perfect for re-purposing as starting squares. The poison and the blunderbuss or the axe or whatever could also be added in as new weapons. You could mix and match which suspects and weapons you wanted to play, keep all the original suspects as well as the new ones, all without annoying fans by removing aspects that they like. New rooms would be a bit more difficult, since players can't just change the board up whenever they want, unless there was some kind of modular board designed...

EDIT: While thinking more about it, while it could maybe be a bit on the nose, a possible new Suspect name/colour could be... Marmalade! Marmalade Games could then introduce them in the mobile game for some promotion!

Post Reply